There is a method to their madness.
In regards to your own personal experience in the Watchtower, ask yourself these two questions: (please note that they may not apply if you were born in, but try and play along)
1. - When did you first realize it was the "truth"?
2. - When did you first realize the Watchtower was chosen by God to be the 'faithful slave'?
In answering #1 I think any person who has converted to the JWs will most likely give you a story about how they learned about the name 'Jehovah', or that they met some nice people at the kingdom hall, learned the "truth" about hellfire, ect. In all these cases they will recall coming to believe it is the truth based upon any number of abstract theological points combined with some feel good experiences that they had.
Now question #2. I'm sure it would take them a much longer time to answer that question. I was a convert to the JW religion. I remember learning about the name 'Jehovah', hellfire, Trinity, paradise, worldwide brotherhood. I remember thinking about these things constantly when I first began to associate with the organization. These were the things that proved to me (at the time) that is was "the truth". But I cannot tell you an exact moment when I came to believe the Watchtower was the all powerful chosen agent of God (i.e. faithful slave). I actually remember my BIble Study were the guy trying to convert me tried his hardest to convince me of this doctrine. I was totally lost at the time. it was confusing and I just didn't get it. Eventually I would come to accept the doctrine, but I have no recollection of it. I simply accepted it, but without excitement.
I bring this up to explain that people do not become JWs simply by accepting evidence the Watchtower has been chosen by God. Rather they believe it to be the truth because they were sold on dozens and dozens of minor issues that were arranged in a specific order and then sold to them. They are very attached to these various ideas (name jehovah, hellfire, trinity, holidays, ect). They believe these things prove it is the truth.
But when you challenge them, you are moving along question #2. You are asking them to defend something that they have no personal expierance in defending (or even thinking about for that matter). You have caught them off guard and the only way they can combat you is to give you a long list of reasons as to why they think it is the truth. The return to the distractions that they have been told prove it to be "the truth".
That's why JWs can be very scattered and erratic in their dialogue. They have no experience in defending their religion in a progressive, logical way. They instead focus on a number of loosely connected talking points that they naively think when added all up prove it is the truth.
drew sagan
JoinedPosts by drew sagan
-
8
How Pathetic Are Jehovah's Witnesses?
by Tired of the Hypocrisy ini have to say that i have been experiencing a wave of pathetic jws.
they all seem to be hyper defensive, off base, and willing to do and say anything to win.
the ones i run into lately are very wary since i wear my grizzled "commander ryker" beard like a badge of honor.
-
-
drew sagan
-
34
fwd Email claiming 1980 AWAKE! "predicted" this economic crisis
by inkling ini did.
*gag* got it from a family member.
i didn't even acknowledge receipt - i just deleted it.. purza.
-
-
drew sagan
Can anyone say, "Savings and Loan Crisis of the 80's?" Old news, JWs. Get over it.
spot on.
Just think about this logically. Anybody can pick one of the worlds majors institutions and say that some day somewhere, somehow, it is going to crash. Big deal. That article is generic and gives no specific details whatsoever that are relevant to todays issues. It only would work on people ignorant about economic issues, aka JWs. -
12
It's all becoming so clear now. My wife will never leave the witnesses
by jambon1 inafter 3 years of mental liberation for me, i feel that i am a fairly well rounded out person now.
very happy within myself.
my wife & i have had our ups & downs the past 3 years.
-
-
drew sagan
There were times I thought my wife would never come out as well. Of course, you are going on a much longer run so I can see how this could really start to get to you.
I do think you have a problem with how you view this situation. You are basing her decision to stay/leave on the level of attention and agreement she has with your arguments. I can say from experience that what prompted my wife to leave was a mixture of things, not just my arguments. In fact, some of my arguments made her want to stay in more sometimes, mainly due to the fact that she wanted to prove me wrong (it's really the truth! I'll show you...)
Step back and realize that at this point nothing you personally can do will change the situation, but that dosen't mean the situation is far from hopeless. Reassess the way you deal with the religion and your marriage. Quit thinking your on a mission to give her the worlds best argument, it's just not going to work that way. -
22
Question for former / current MS'es and Elders
by tresdecu ini know what you'll say now, but, back when you were 'in' mentally and/or phsically did you ever enjoy or look forward to the meeting with the co on friday nights??.
they are the worst!
(one coming up this month for me) (yes, i will have the flu!
-
-
drew sagan
I only attended two, I wasn't a MS very long due to the fact that I switched congregations after I was married and wasn't made MS at the new one.
So, being that I didn't go to many of them I was excited about the expectations. The CO railed on the Elders for not doing enough, and me as the spiritual giant wanna be sucked it all down. -
22
I read a study about the WTS-Growth
by JWdaughter inand it said that based on their growth and such, that in 20 years(or by 2020) there would be 28 million jws.
any sign of imminent, widespread persecution that you all have noticed?
i keep hearing about kh's being built and remodeled, and how huge their conventions are.
-
-
drew sagan
I could really go line by line through this whole document, most of what I see shows a rash desire to overgeneralize from very little data or knowledge. For example:
The Witnesses claimed their average number of publishers in Canada was 100,991 for 1991. In contrast, the 1991 Canadian Census found 168,375 self- identified Witnesses. What this shows is that there are many Canadians who report themselves to be Witnesses, but who are not counted as publishers. Consequently, membership statistics based on the average number of publishers offer a very conservative estimate.
The author fails to realize there can be multiple reasons for this discrepancy. While it is true that there are publishers that are not counted by the Watchtowers records, the author of this paper fails to recognize the reach of inactive Witnesses. Many times people who in inactive in the faith (including disfellowshipped people) may identify themselves as Jehovah's Witnesses. The paper also doesn't tell us the methods used to collect the data that is mentioned. All things considered, the fact hat there are an extra 67,000 people self identified as Jehovah's Witnesses can potentially tell us many things, but without more data we simply can not infer much from what is available. It's my personal feeling that these people represent those outside the organization who either had casual membership with the group (going for years, growing up jw but never getting baptized) as well as people who have left the group physically but not mentally. As I posted earlier, the Watchtower organization has one of the highest membership loss rates. While this doesn't effect the organization in terms of negative growth, it is well possible that this factor explains large portions of the population that call themselves witnesses but are not 'active' in the societies terms.
-
22
I read a study about the WTS-Growth
by JWdaughter inand it said that based on their growth and such, that in 20 years(or by 2020) there would be 28 million jws.
any sign of imminent, widespread persecution that you all have noticed?
i keep hearing about kh's being built and remodeled, and how huge their conventions are.
-
-
drew sagan
This study is over a decade old. It is pretty much outdated. Worldwide growth number have drastically decreased going into the 2000's for the organization, among other things. The first line in their paper is:
During the past 75 years the Jehovah’s Witnesses have sustained an extraordi- nary rate of growth—currently more than 5% per year—and have done so on a global scale.
The growth rates of the past ten years so us that this trend simply is no longer true. IN some years the growth rate has been under half that number. Additionally, the article does not comprehensively deal with the organizations huge membership losses.
-
5
How the Hell does the WT deal with ZEITGEIST.COM
by IreallydidwalkoutofaKH inhave you seen this movie..... it was unbeleivable................i am not very savy with the internet, but some of you are...maybe somebody could make it available on this site....but for those of you who have not watched this just type zeitgiest on google
-
-
drew sagan
It's been discussed here a lot in the past. Very powerful film, but apparently full of "half truths", which is a shame. It would be great to see more videos of this quality on the subject, but without all the extra fake evidence.
Leolaia has broken down this movie a number of times to show how factually inaccurate it is. Educate yourself by reading some good books by respected scholars, now cheesy internet videos ;P
-
27
How come the US taxpayer has to bail out the greedy, immoral bankers
by yadda yadda 2 in$750 billion.
thats about $2,000 for every us citizen.. what i don't understand is how come it is viewed as communism and interventionism to interfere with the market when the times are good, but as soon as it all goes sour, the us government immediately intervenes to bail the market out and mortgage future generations of hardworking us taxpayers?
it's almost surreal.
-
-
drew sagan
Because the disinterested and apathetic US taxpayer has elected bafoons to run their country for the past 30 years.
-
33
I met with a surgeon yesterday about blood - wow
by BonaFide ini was asked by a friend to go with an older sister yesterday to the hospital to talk with her surgeon about her upcoming major surgery.
hospital liason committee told her to watch the society's video on blood, and if she can't get her surgeon to agree on non-blood treatments, then they will help.
it was the weirdest experience of my life.
-
-
drew sagan
Don't you see? She was looking forward to a "test". It's no fun if everything is fine, if the surgeon is fine, if everyone is fine with her wishes. Where's her martyrdom, darnit?
dead on assesment.
My wife once talked with a JW mom who has kids in school. This mom told my wife about how pleasant her child's teacher was when they told her they were Jehovah's Witnesses and that their son couldn't do things like birthdays and the pledge. This JW actually started to say that because her son was treated as a 'normal' child by this teacher was persecution from Satan. Thus in her mind a lack of persecution from the world around us is persecution from Satan because then your faith isn't being tested! -
50
As I stated before the Great Tribulation is picking up speed!!!!!!!!!!
by unbaptized inwhen i think about the biblical tale of noah!
i think of the time we are living in today and how it resembles noah's time.
no one's really paying attention.
-
-
drew sagan
This is satire, right? If not let me simply say you create the age old mistake of believing that the entire cosmos revolves around your particular human society. If you haven't noticed many have risen and fell without the almighty crashing down upon us with fiery vengeance.